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The Earth and Moon comparison conundrum.
08-24-2011, 05:32 PM (This post was last modified: 08-24-2011 05:34 PM by Scpg02..)
Post: #61
RE: The Earth and Moon comparison conundrum.
(08-24-2011 04:08 PM)Derek Wrote:  " The moon rotates on its axis. This is a provable fact. "
Which I have asked for proof of, so far, none has been given.
I am talking about spin, not rotation, please see " Later edit " in Post 53.

I have given you proof several times, you either don't understand it or are unwilling to accept it. spin and rotation are the same thing. The moon spins or rotates on its axis. So does the kid and the car.

Your problem with the moon is that you can't "see" the spin. The spin is extremely slow, hence the tidal lock. If the moon did not spin it would not be in tidal lock. You would see all sides of the moon even though it is not spinning.

“We do not believe any group of men adequate enough or wise enough to operate without scrutiny or without criticism. We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it, that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. We know that in secrecy error undetected will flourish and subvert”.J Robert Oppenheimer.
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08-24-2011, 11:17 PM
Post: #62
RE: The Earth and Moon comparison conundrum.
(08-24-2011 05:32 PM)Scpg02. Wrote:  I have given you proof several times,
The Royal Society has, or rather had, a really good motto for this.
" Take no man's word for it "
I am not sexist, so I will question what you have presented here,
which as I understand is what skepticism is actually meant to be.
Open minded discussion and presentation of what we observe, with the intention of improving our understanding.

(08-24-2011 05:32 PM)Scpg02. Wrote:  you either don't understand it or are unwilling to accept it.
nod_no thumbdown Scpg02.

(08-24-2011 05:32 PM)Scpg02. Wrote:  spin and rotation are the same thing.

I have to question your assertion that rotation and spin are the same thing Scpg02.
Rotation does not make one dizzy, spinning does.

Do you get dizzy in a centrifuge?
I think not, because you are rotating, not spinning.

Another "person" we could ask about this matter would be an ice skater,
how do they avoid getting dizzy?
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08-25-2011, 03:31 AM
Post: #63
RE: The Earth and Moon comparison conundrum.
BTW - I think I can now declare that I am more correct in this "discussion" between Paradigm 1 and Paradigm 2 as described in Post 51.

ie,
Paradigm 1, effectively the "consensus paradigm" says,
the moon's axis of spin does not change whilst the moon orbits earth, ie, it always faces the same way.

Therefore to explain what we observe, the moon must be spinning on it's axis of spin once per orbit.
Paradigm 2 is my position, that the moon's axis of spin is following a circular path around earth, because of gravity, ie tidal lock, that "powers" the moons orbit around earth.

The point to remember is that,
rotation of a viewed object which is traveling in an elliptical or circular path, and spinning upon axis of spin of the object are two different things.

If one imagines the earth's orbit around the sun, one sees that the axis of spin of earth is also supposedly rotating once per orbit, as per the moon in Paradigm 1.
Really, the earth, and the moon are traveling in ellipses, so the rate of rotation must vary with the curvature of the orbit,
yet, amazingly "we" are supposed to believe this always adds up to 1.
The rate of spin upon the axis of spin varies, according to Paradigm 1, with the curvature of the orbit to always add up to 1 per orbit.......POPPYCOCK.
Paradigm 1 would have to show what speeds up and slows down the rate of spin in different parts of the orbit accordingly.......

The axis of spin is traveling in an elliptical, or basically circular course.
As is proved by tidal lock as mentioned earlier in this thread.
Now that, in my opinion, is a better explanation of what we actually observe.
Therefore, Paradigm 2 IS the better Paradigm.

AND, if I may be so bold, Paradigm 1 has been shown, many times now in this thread, to be wrong,
by the examples I have given.
AND the lack of examples of that type of movement in the real world in support of Paradigm 1 that
I have requested from the "consensus supporters" posting on this thread so far..

The "proof" for Paradigm 1 has been given as the fact one can draw a circle with one's finger without rotating your finger in relation to your hand.....
Orbiting and drawing a circle are two different things that mean the "penny" example is inappropriate, and
that the "penny" is proof of nothing in respect of how the moon orbits earth.

" 2 + 2 = 5 " sounds a lot like "new maths" to me.......
Please see,
OUTCOME - Biased education fraud.

Later edit -
In my travels I found the below jpeg at,
http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/wea...ths_orbit/
[Image: seasons_orbit5x7.jpg]
This appears to be proof of Paradigm 1, in that, the earth has seasons because
the axis of spin always faces the same way.
If the axis of spin traveled in the way described by Paradigm 2 then earth would not have seasons.
Therefore, I am wrong.
It still does not look "right" to me, but that is as maybe, I was wrong.
My apologies all round, if I caused any unintended confusion, for what little they are worth.

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed
(and hence clamorous to be led to safety)
by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.

H. L. Mencken.

The hobgoblins have to be imaginary so that
"they" can offer their solutions, not THE solutions.
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08-25-2011, 12:36 PM
Post: #64
RE: The Earth and Moon comparison conundrum.
Here are the best estimates I have found. The Moon is a bit tricky because some places never get sunlight and that really drops the average. All three systems are non-equilibrium with the Moon being the simplest one and the one that is nearest the expected blackbody prediction.

The loss of energy to the subsurface is the main cause of it not being an ideal blackbody equilibrium. That prevents the Moon from warming us to the full blackbody peak temperature and it also prevents it from cooling down as much as it should because that subsurface energy causes warming when the Sun is down.

The rotation makes little difference to the blackbody behavior.


Mean Surface Temperature

Earth 14 °C 288K
Moon -23 °C 250K
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08-25-2011, 01:49 PM
Post: #65
RE: The Earth and Moon comparison conundrum.
Thank you for your reply John Kehr.
If I may, some questions.

" The Moon is a bit tricky because some places never get sunlight "
Am I right in thinking you mean the moon's poles? I had not thought about that at all.
If so, given the moon's elliptical orbital plane also varies that that may mean even the Poles do at times (which may be rarely, and over long time periods) get some sunlight.

" and that really drops the average. "
Any idea as to how much please?

" That prevents the Moon from warming us to the full blackbody peak temperature and
it also prevents it from cooling down as much as it should because that subsurface energy causes warming when the Sun is down.
"
Is the underlined us a typo?

And yes, regolith, ie, just sub-surface heating (by conduction), retention and varying later release.

Are both the temperatures quoted actual surface temperature "global means"?
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08-25-2011, 05:55 PM
Post: #66
RE: The Earth and Moon comparison conundrum.
(08-24-2011 11:17 PM)Derek Wrote:  
(08-24-2011 05:32 PM)Scpg02. Wrote:  I have given you proof several times,
The Royal Society has, or rather had, a really good motto for this.
" Take no man's word for it "
I am not sexist, so I will question what you have presented here,
which as I understand is what skepticism is actually meant to be.
Open minded discussion and presentation of what we observe, with the intention of improving our understanding.

(08-24-2011 05:32 PM)Scpg02. Wrote:  you either don't understand it or are unwilling to accept it.
nod_no thumbdown Scpg02.

(08-24-2011 05:32 PM)Scpg02. Wrote:  spin and rotation are the same thing.

I have to question your assertion that rotation and spin are the same thing Scpg02.
Rotation does not make one dizzy, spinning does.

Do you get dizzy in a centrifuge?
I think not, because you are rotating, not spinning.

Another "person" we could ask about this matter would be an ice skater,
how do they avoid getting dizzy?

Ok lets try this one more time. take a spinning top. allow a piece of the top to separate from the rest and slide out on a poll. is the separated section still spinning?

take a piece of wood and spin it. now grow the diameter of the wood. Are the molecules on the outer edge still spinning? If not not, at what point to the stop spinning as the diameter grows?

“We do not believe any group of men adequate enough or wise enough to operate without scrutiny or without criticism. We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it, that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. We know that in secrecy error undetected will flourish and subvert”.J Robert Oppenheimer.
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08-26-2011, 06:00 AM
Post: #67
RE: The Earth and Moon comparison conundrum.
Scpg02, my issue, as I see it, is the path traveled by the axis of spin, and whether that traveled always facing the same way or not.
Apparently it does. Yet I have given examples where it apparently does not.

I "see" your example, and thank you for it, it shows rotation and spin are the same thing, but yet,
something is still not "right" to me.
It is contained, I think, within the difference between the earth and the moon examples.
And spin makes one dizzy, rotation does not.
But what it is eludes me.
No matter as such, within what I can "see", I was, and Paradigm 2 is wrong. If I ever suss it, I will post it.

In the end elsewhere I have been shown / told how wrong I am on so many things,
that I presently thought I "see", and quite clearly in all honesty.
I will check for permission (by email) and post what I refer to on the below linked to thread in the near future.
Later edit - Permission has been refused, maybe I'm not as wrong as I thought I was told I was.
Oceans, the atmospheres heat pipe and thermo - forum review.
So, within my abilities and time available I obviously can not make a worthwhile, or even correct contribution.
So, it is time I admitted to myself, if no one else, I am beyond my abilities or capabilities in climate science and related matters or discussions,
at any level..

Yet later edit - The above referred to "chemists view" upon the, and my preferred, thermodynamics approach,
is not as damming, or as sound, as it may have first appeared.

and,
the spinning wooden top example given above - yes the object will be spinning upon it's axis of spin,
but the molecule referred to will be rotating...
Perspective -
"objects" (and molecules) do not generally have middle ears, as we do.

In both cases, I am not certain, either way, nor that anyone else can be certain, either way, of what the answers actually are.


Even later edit / addition - Does the fact that the moon is in a gravitational tidal lock with earth, but
the earth is not in such a tidal lock with the sun,
alter the way "we" should view these two seemingly contradictory examples?
ie, the earth's seasons and the moon always showing the same face to earth.
The difference being that, the earth is orbiting the sun, like the penny being pushed around the table, whilst,
the moon is traveling in a circular path around the earth (because of tidal lock),
like the Wonder Waltzer car travels in a circular path around the fair ground ride's center point.

I think it might, therefore, if that is the case, then both "paradigms" are correct for the appropriate situation.
This would avoid (and explain) the confusing "accepted" view point that rotation of an object, and an object spinning upon it's own axis of spin are the same thing,
when, to my mind, they are patently NOT the same thing.

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed
(and hence clamorous to be led to safety)
by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.

H. L. Mencken.

The hobgoblins have to be imaginary so that
"they" can offer their solutions, not THE solutions.
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10-29-2011, 11:14 PM
Post: #68
RE: The Earth and Moon comparison conundrum.
Whilst pondering over whether it is possible to make an earth moon comparison,
I have also come across this from Nasif Nahle.


Coplanarity of the Solar System and the Milky Way.

Nahle, Nasif. 2007.
BioCab Journal Online.
San Nicolas de los Garza, N. L., Mexico.


Wow.
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