Oil IS abiotic - finally it is admitted as having been shown.

[Derek]

Hi All,
This really is great news.

truth trumps the "peak oil" lie....
now we need only reverse the preverse LLNL lie of 99% dino juice to 99% elemental fission and 1% dino sediment absorption.... Joe Olsen.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/10/s...ction.html
Sustainable Oil Production?
By John McLaughlin
October 10, 2010
Excerpt,
" Thus, as researchers dig deeper into sources of climate change,
we must seriously consider the concept of a molten Earth core fed by nuclear waste from a georeactor at its center emitting
heat as well as the elements to form hydrocarbons creating petroleum.
With great heat (including an abundance of CO2) escaping the crust by mechanisms such as
hydrothermal vents in the ocean floor triggering major events such as El Niño ocean warming,
we may be getting closer to climate change truth than the mythology of "man-made climate disruption." "

and,
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/20...study-says
Hydrocarbons Could Form Deep In the Earth From Methane, Not Animal Remains
Study lends credence to abiogenic petroleum theory, which means there may be more oil in our future than we thought.
By Rebecca Boyle Posted 04.15.2011 at 12:56 pm

As far as the earth's core is concerned, Potassium-40 has also been overlooked by many,
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/17436
Potassium-40 heats up Earth's core
May 7, 2003

and,
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18725103.700
First measurements of Earth's core radioactivity
27 July 2005 by Celeste Biever
Excerpt,
" Measurements of the temperature gradients across rocks in mines and boreholes have led geologists
to estimate that the planet is internally generating between 30 and 44 terawatts of heat. "

Some are now suggesting upto, and variably, 66 terawatts of heat.
The planet only receives 84 terawatts of heat from the sun, at the top of the atmosphere,
which means due to surface albedo and atospheric absorption, the planet receives a lot less than 84 terawatts at the surface.

Yet many still insist upon ignoring geothermal inputs to climate.
The oceans do do a good job of "masking" much of the geothermal input it must be said,
but can we really ignore it?

[Richard111]

Heh! Good for Joe. I was working in the oilfields of the Persian Gulf back in the late 1960s and the Americans driving the drilling rigs were adamant that the oil would run out in 25 years. When it didn't I began to wonder about this "fossil" fuel. I used to ask back then how come oil fields and coal fields don't seem to coincide?
Now we know!

[Derek]

Hi All,
I think the below must be mentioned here.

http://oilismastery.blogspot.com/
Oil is Mastery blog.

Excerpt -
Introduction To The Science Of Abiotic Petroleum Origin
* U.S. State Department On Abiogenic Petroleum Origin, 2004
- Link no longer working.
* Environmental Literacy Council On Abiotic Theory, 2002-8
- http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/1130.html
* Kenney, J.F., Introduction to Modern Petroleum Science
- http://www.gasresources.net/Introduction.htm
* Kenney, J.F., Interview On National Public Radio, (MP3 Download)
- http://www.gasresources.net/Kenney-NPR.mp3
* Prouty, L.F., Deep Wells Refute Biogenic Origin, 1996
http://www.prouty.org/oil.html
* Brown, T.J., The End of Fossil Fuels, 2001
- http://thomasbrown.org/EndofFossilFuels/...Fuels.html
* McGowan, D., Stalin and Abiotic Oil, 2005
- http://educate-yourself.org/cn/davemcgow...ar05.shtml
* Engdahl, F.W., Confessions of an 'ex' Peak Oil Believer, Sep 2007
- http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Ge...ussia.html
* Sheridan, P., The Origin of Oil, Today's SUV, Pages 52-57, Oct 1999
http://links.veronicachapman.com/OriginsOfOil.htm
* Kutcherov, V., The Modern Theory of Abiotic Deep Genesis of Hydrocarbons:
A History of the History, International Geological Congress Oslo, 2008
- http://www.cprm.gov.br/33IGC/1286972.html

There are other sections there listed as,
Mainstream Media Coverage,
Oil Science,
Tectonic Oil,
Oil Quotes.

From the last listed section,
"One can, then, conceive the production, by purely mineral means, of all natural hydrocarbons.
The intervention of heat, of water, and of alkaline metals -- lastly,
the tendency of hydrocarbons to unite together to form the more condensed material
-- suffice to account for the formation of these curious compounds.
Moreover, this formation will be continuous because the reactions which started it are renewed incessantly."
-- Marcellin Berthelot, chemist, 1866

"The hydrogen gas evolved from volcanoes, or from chasms in the earth during earthquakes, is generally combined with sulphur or carbon;
it is probably formed by the decomposition of water, when it finds access to subterranean fire."
-- Robert Bakewell, geologist, 1813

"Petroleum is the product of a distillation from great depth and issues from the primitive rocks beneath which the forces of all volcanic action lie."
-- Alexander Von Humboldt, naturalist, 1804

"There is no doubt that our research proves that crude oil and natural gas are generated without the involvement of fossils.
All types of bedrock can serve as reservoirs of oil."
-- Vladimir A. Kutcherov, geologist, September 2009

"All major oil and gas provinces in the world are apparently associated with transtensive tectonic conditions,
supporting the abiogenic theory of petroleum."
-- Karsten M. Storetvedt, geophysicist, August 2008

"The modern theory of the abiotic deep petroleum origins recognizes that petroleum
is a primordial material of deep origin which has been erupted into the crust of the Earth.
In short, petroleum is not a 'fossil fuel' and has no intrinsic connection with any biological detritus 'in the sediments'."
-- Vladimir A. Kutcherov, geologist, August 2008

"Ultra deep wells bring a range of unexpectedness
- basically [a] change of views of structures and geochemical processes in Earth."
-- Yuri Galant, geologist, August 2008

[JohnWho]

Does this mean there is no "fossil fuel" to stop using?

[Derek]

(09-12-2011 11:40 AM)JohnWho Wrote:  Does this mean there is no "fossil fuel" to stop using?

JohnWho, did you miss.

(09-12-2011 06:36 AM)Derek Wrote:  http://oilismastery.blogspot.com/
Oil is Mastery blog.

Excerpt -

Oil Quotes.

" In short, petroleum is not a 'fossil fuel' and has no intrinsic connection with any biological detritus 'in the sediments'."
-- Vladimir A. Kutcherov, geologist, August 2008

Oil is a sustainable (abiotic) resource, in modern parlance.
Earth constantly produces it,
at what rate, and how much it varies, are the only real questions remaining.

[Sunsettommy]

(09-12-2011 11:40 AM)JohnWho Wrote:  Does this mean there is no "fossil fuel" to stop using?

That is what it appears.

Thus all that crap environmentalists and peak oil believers have put out,is in error.

Now will they start denying evidence of non fossil oil?

[Questioning_Climate]

They have already started attacking 'non-fossil oil'. The angle they use is that it cannot be created as fast as we are using it and therefore it will run out - Peak Oil again.

Oil and gas is continually generated and leaks naturally from the earth all the time. There are records of humans using it dating back thousands of years. All the early oil wells were found by locating seepage. In the Gulf of Mexico so much oil reaches the surface naturally that it can be seen from satellite, long before the spill, and has been doing so for millions of years. As we know from the recent spill much, if not most, of the oil never reached the surface but was eaten by microbes. That happens everywhere. Oil and gas are food from many microbes and they ingest it as fast as they can and multiply to take advantage of it.

We can only guess at how much oil and gas released from the bottom of oceans is eaten before reaching the surface.

Microbes also exist way below ground where they also consume oil and gas. Some of these and/or their remains are washed out with the hydrocarbons and that is how some of the claims of 'fossil' arise. Life is pretty much everywhere on the planet, as long as there is a suitable food source and it is not physically impossible to survive.

Isotopic variations are common and highly variable but are not necessarily and not likely to be an indication of origin but more usually subsequent processes be they biological or not.

Anyway, I've drifted from the topic. Environmentalists and Peak Oilers and other Malthusians will spin the facts in a similar manner to AGW. It will be difficult to counter the claims, not least because Big Oil will be called. The same type of pseudo-science all over again. I think we can be poretty sure this will become a major issue as AGW dies its long-winded death.

[Derek]

I wonder should "we" take the approach that it is a two hundred years and counting "debate".
Judging by the dates of the quotes I used from Oil is Mastery.

The point being, 200 years, no evidence for "fossil",
yet we have a repeatable, verifiable experiment to prove abiotic.

Yes, the questions remaining are how much, and what rate, and is it variable, if so by how much.
BUT, not a bit of that says, it's "fossil".
So, the argument is won as such.

The details they try to attack with, "rate/s" is an admission of the fact it ain't "fossil".
Then, "we" can get on with the real questions, how sustainable is it?
Shouldn't be too hard to build a pretty water tight and positive case I would of thought.
Oil sands, tar shales, Gulf of Mexico leaks, as Questioning Climate mentions, how much have Russia's oil reserves increased?
How much are those oil wells refilling? When will North Sea oil run out? That's "anti peak oil" ain't it LOL..
etc, etc, etc.

I think we have a "winner", or rather already "won", here.

[Sunsettommy]

Quote:They have already started attacking 'non-fossil oil'. The angle they use is that it cannot be created as fast as we are using it and therefore it will run out - Peak Oil again.

Then they are admitting abiotic oil exist.

[Questioning_Climate]

List of actions for those trying to support biotic hydrocarbons:
1) Deny it is possible for abiotic oil & gas.
2) Admit there could be some very small abiotic component.
3) Claim to know the production rate of hydrocarbons and that it is very slow, on geological time-scales.
4) Find other things to divert attention: AGW is a perfect excuse.
5) Discredit anyone opposing the 'fossil fuel' theory.
6) Discredit their message using bizarre logic and pseudo-science. [Refer to climate science for help]
7) Assert that even if aboitic hydrocarbons do exist that they are too difficult to reach, uneconomic and environmentally bad.
8) Ensure the use of words such as 'unsustainable', 'dirty', 'non-renewable', etc.
9) Attack any methods used to recover hydrocarbons or associated issues; i.e. fracking, chemicals, drilling, land use, contamination of anything and everything, spills, biodiversity, etc.
10) Ignore any conceivable benefits to anyone or anything, unless it is profits for that evil oil industry.
11) Anything else you can think of ...

I'm bored of typing ;-)

[Derek]

Yup, I know that feeling Questioning_Climate.

Anyone got a recipe for happy pills.........

Oil - "fossil" or abiotic.
AGW - Mans activities, or solar / geothermal powered refrigerator surface.
Universe - Newtonian, or electric. How much plasma is there??
etc, etc, etc....

I have always said I hate politics, now just even more. If that were possible.
Politics - the "art" of how the greedy stay greedy, whilst never telling the truth, nor admitting when they are wrong, and more usually, deliberately lying to conceal how they steal from us all.

"We" the people, have failed ourselves, "we" took our eye off the ball (as written in the American constitution),
the politicians have ran free, and unchecked, they are robbing us blind.

NB - For those interested, I am all but done with the "Slayers".
I'll do my own piece here for forum review, and that's about it.

[Questioning_Climate]

I think the government may have just banned happy pills. Apparently 'legal highs' are too good for the plebs and must only be enjoyed by the elite

[Richard111]

Black Gold: Thomas Gold’s Deep Hot Biosphere and the Deep-Earth theories of the Origin of Petroleum

Looks like the end of the arguments.

[Questioning_Climate]

The Deep Carbon Observatory is (on the whole) gradually coming to terms with abiogenic hydrocarbons:
https://dco.gl.ciw.edu/science/deep-energy

A fairly recent paper linked from DCO is also quite strongly pointing that way:
https://dco.gl.ciw.edu/sites/dco.gl.ciw....202011.pdf

It won't be long before the transition away from the dead dinosaur accelerates.

[Climate Realist]

I don't think it really matters from the point of view of disproving the greenhouse effect if oil is abiotic.

Think about this, if a proportion of the oil and gas were converted from living creatures/ plants then this hydrocarbon matter must have originated from the atmosphere in the distant past. Thus CO2 levels were much higher a long time ago and yet life on earth did not die out and there was not disasterous weather patterns. In fact, life flourished then, even more so than it does today with even Antarctica being a green and pleasant land.

OTOH, if there is an abiotic process for converting CO2 from the atmosphere into hydrocarbons, then this also is evidence against the dangerous greenhouse theory.

Also, if there is a method of abiotic oil production, we need to know how to do this ourselves in a factory. Then oil and gas become renewable resources!

[Derek]

Climate Realist, the point about the now 300 year old abiotic / biotic oil "debate", in which the side with no evidence (biotic) is beating the side with evidence (abiotic), is the continuing and deliberate perversion of the natural sciences for political and financial gain by the few.
In that respect it is very relevant to the global warming scam, same perpetrators, same purpose.

There is a repeatable experiment that produces oil, but it is not economically viable, unless you are a planet, with a hot core.....LOL.

[Climate Realist]

Yes, the theory of high pressure and temp, possibly in the presence of a catalyst, certainly sounds plausible from Methane. All sorts of odd things happen chemistry wise at high temp and pressure.

Not economically viable at the moment, but by selecting the right catalyst and with better understanding of he chemistry, it may be possible to develop a viable process at a lower temp and pressure.

[Richard111]

Dumb bunny layman thoughts after a couple of beers on a Saturday evening - a lot of carbonate material and water is moved deep down in the subduction zones. All the ingredients for creating hydrocarbon molecules when the temperature and pressure are right. Any correlation with deep gas sites and subduction zones? Crust under Gulf of Mexico was well shattered by the Chicksulub event ( okay, you spell it for me :-) ).

[Climate Realist]

Sorry Richard methane is likely but not carbonate unless you treat it with an acid and then reduce the CO2 to a hydrocarbon. and these conditions are unlikely underground.

[Questioning_Climate]

Hydrocarbons from the deep need a route to the surface or towards the surface before it is possible to detect them. That means that correlation with subduction zone may be poor. The correlation with rifts and fractures - the passages by which the hydrocarbons migrate to the surface - is relatively strong. However, keep in mind that until recently conventional theory dictated the places to look and they are not necessarily the best/correct places; meaning that statistics are presently likely to be biased.

---

Fate of carbonates within oceanic plates subducted to the lower mantle, and a possible mechanism of diamond formation http://tinyurl.com/7hkly8x

Experimental study on hydrocarbon formation due to reactions between carbonates and water or water-bearing minerals in deep earth http://tinyurl.com/77dkc3c

Generation of Methane in the Earth’s Mantle: In situ High P-T Measurements of Carbonate Reduction https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/311613.pdf

Synthesis of hydrocarbons under upper mantle conditions: evidence for the theory of abiotic deep petroleum origin (2010) http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/215/...012103.pdf

Experimental investigation of hydrocarbons formation and transformation under Earth’s upper mantle conditions http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get/div...FULLTEXT01

Abiogenic hydrocarbons produced under upper-mantle pressure-temperature conditions http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010EGUGA..1210896G