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Oceans and heat content
#21
Richard111,
Errr, yes, I'd fixed the link.

Also, I did not mean that oceans were in some way invisibly "storing" any AGW heat,
Segalstein put paid to that idea.  Big Grin
I was merely trying to suggest we need to know far more about what (numerous things)
heat and cool the oceans to understand even the basics of the climate system.

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed
(and hence clamorous to be led to safety)
by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.

H. L. Mencken.  

The hobgoblins have to be imaginary so that
"they" can offer their solutions, not THE solutions.
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#22
That is easy for you guys to talk about how easy this is. I would need to remove my shoes and socks to figure that out because I do not have enough fingers. I did read that posting at Sr's site. I am still trying to locate the VIRTUAL pipeline where the heat is hiding but I think I do not have enough faith in that miracle to find it. I think it is in the same place as the magic elixir that turns lead into gold or the fountain of youth.
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#23
[quote author=Mike Davis link=topic=213.msg1875#msg1875 date=1254624937]
That is easy for you guys to talk about how easy this is. I would need to remove my shoes and socks to figure that out because I do not have enough fingers. I did read that posting at Sr's site. I am still trying to locate the VIRTUAL pipeline where the heat is hiding but I think I do not have enough faith in that miracle to find it. I think it is in the same place as the magic elixir that turns lead into gold or the fountain of youth.
[/quote]

That virtual heat pipeline is all in James Hansen's head.

  :-X
It is our attitude toward free thought and free expression that will determine our fate. There must be no limit on the range of temperate discussion, no limits on thought. No subject must be taboo. No censor must preside at our assemblies.

–William O. Douglas, U.S. Supreme Court Justice, 1952
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#24
No need for anyone to take their socks off when figuring this stuff. Getting too cold anyway.  Wink

I am looking for an expansion index for water as it warms. If I can find out how much say one cubic meter expands per degree centigrade it would be no problem applying that to the first few tens of metres of the ocean to get a hypothetical sea rise for a given temperature.

I arrived at a figure of a "forcing" of 0.75W/m^2 to melt enough enough ice to raise sea levels by 1 metre in ten years. This is less than half the current figure quoted by the IPCC. They quote 1.6W/m^2 for current AGW levels. At that rate ice should be melting at over 2,000 cubic miles a year! Anyone notice anything?
Environmentalism is based on lies and the lies reflect an agenda that regards humanity as the enemy of the Earth. - Alan Caruba
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#25
SST:
Here I have spent much time searching for the VIRTUAL Pipeline so I could have free heat this winter. :'(
Richard111:
A neat experiment is to take a 2 liter bottle full of water and with the lid tight set in a sunny location and wait for the bottle to explode due to expansion. On the other hand a full bottle in the freezer will also explode after it has reached the freezing point as really cold water also expands. In the meantime a bottle left out in cold weather will collapse a little and one with less water will colapse a lot. Fill up a bottle or any container with hot water and wait for it to cool and record the loss. The space requirement for a cubic meter of water might be excessive but using a smaller container scaled and a thermometer to record temperature. Then you could record the overflow from the big container keeping in mind that some will evaporate while warming.
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#26
Richard111:

I think the data you want is at
http://physchem.kfunigraz.ac.at/sm/Servi...ermexp.htm

I hope this helps.

Richard
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#27
Mike, I have TWO 1 cubic metre water tanks.  ;D  I catch rainwater from the roof and use it to flush my toilet. (How green can one be?  :Smile ) Never ever thought of checking the levels between hot and cold. Tanks are sealed from the air except for a 1 inch overflow pipe. Need to get one of those fancy USB thermometers Anthony Watts sells.

Thank you for the link Richard S. Those are small numbers.
Currently trying to aquaint myself with water density at different temperatures. Beats me how any warm water can stay submerged for long before it reaches the surface or is stabalised by surrounding water.

The THC deep water currents are COLD AND DENSE and driven by gravity, geography and coriolis. Warm SURFACE waters are mostly wind driven and geography. Wonder what would happen to global climate if the isthmus of Panama wasn't there.

It would appear sea surface temperatures do not exceed 33.5C (in a few tropical areas only) and sea bottom temperatures are at the maximum density level of 3.984C (unless there is an ocean ridge/volcano nearby).

Not much of a range to play with. Water sure is funny stuff!

Environmentalism is based on lies and the lies reflect an agenda that regards humanity as the enemy of the Earth. - Alan Caruba
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#28
Look at the date of this release. Not considered newsworthy by the MSM I guess. And warmists claim 0.04% of the atmosphere can change the climate temperatures over just decadel timescales when 90% of the heat capacity of the global climate system resides in the oceans!

Changes In Net Flow Of Ocean Heat Correlate With Past Climate Anomalies

Quote:ScienceDaily (Aug. 17, 2009) — Physicists at the University of Rochester have combed through data from satellites and ocean buoys and found evidence that in the last 50 years, the net flow of heat into and out of the oceans has changed direction three times.

These shifts in the balance of heat absorbed from the sun and radiated from the oceans correlate well with past anomalies that have been associated with abrupt shifts in the earth's climate, say the researchers. These anomalies include changes in normal storm intensities, unusual land temperatures, and a large drop in salmon populations along the western United States.

The physicists also say these changes in ocean heat-flow direction should be taken into account when predicting global climate because the oceans represent 90 percent of the total heat in the earth's climate system.

The study, which will appear in an upcoming issue of Physics Letters A, differs from most previous studies in two ways, the researchers say. First, the physicists look at the overall heat content of the Earth's climate system, measuring the net balance of radiation from both the sun and Earth. And second, it analyzes more completely the data sets the researchers believe are of the highest quality, and not those that are less robust.

I love that last sentence. Is it possible tree rings and such are not of the highest quality?
Environmentalism is based on lies and the lies reflect an agenda that regards humanity as the enemy of the Earth. - Alan Caruba
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#29
Richard111:
The answer is yes and the surface temperature records also!
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#30
I needed to update my information on calcium carbonate and CO2 deposition in the oceans and ended up, via google, at this site:

Emiliania huxleyi Home Page. Fascinating stuff if you are interested in what goes on under the ocean surface. I followed a link at the bottom of the page to Biogeochemical Impacts and was startled to read:

Quote:2. Ocean Heat Retention: the scattering caused by coccoliths causes more heat and light than usual to be pushed back into the atmosphere. It also causes more of the remaining heat to be trapped near to the ocean surface, and only allows a much smaller fraction of the total heat to penetrate to deeper in the water (see photon budgets above). Because it is the near-surface water which exchanges heat with the atmosphere, all three of the effects just described conspire to mean that coccolithophore blooms may tend to make the overall water column dramatically cooler over an extended period, even though this may initially be masked by a warming of the surface skin of the ocean (the top few metres). The importance of this effect, both regionally and globally, is currently being worked upon but has not yet been established.

This leads me to wonder just how reliable are the calculations for ocean heat content when these little beasties churn around in the oggy?

Environmentalism is based on lies and the lies reflect an agenda that regards humanity as the enemy of the Earth. - Alan Caruba
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#31
Richard111:
Thinking about the amount of data for ocean temperatures /heat content I come to the conclusion that we do not have enough non corrupted data to tell us anything about long term weather / climate / average ocean heat content. Before the satellites the data was guesses at best. The satellites do not actually measure temperature or heat but proxies for those at a possition above the surface and the so called sea surface temperatures taken before the Buoys was any thing but surface temperatures. Imagine if you will throwing a bucket from the side of a moving ship and retrieving water and plunging a thermometer into it to determine the temperature. What did you measure? What was the depth of your hull that churned the water before it reached your bucket? You did not measure sea surface temperature and the other ships that were playing the game were actually measuring something other than what you were measuring. You could actually go through the same location in 5 minutes and get a different temperature. Then we come to engine intakes and the need for water of a certain temperature to cool the engines. How much heat from the engine are you measuring? how deep is your hull which is churning the water before it reaches the engine intake.
Because of known ocean variations that last for, some say, 60 years average climate can not be based on less than 60 years but we would need 3 or more cycles to have a better understanding of climate / ocean heat content averages. The 180 years would / should be the minimum with a long term goal of collecting data for 10 to 50 cycles. In that period we would have a better understand of how much we do not know!
The ocean heat content is only another diversion from the pseudoscience of climate change! Along with physics, surface temperatures, proxy data, and the list goes on!  
BTW: I agree with the quote from that paper!
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#32
Richard111:
OGGY or ORGY? :o
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#33
[quote author=Mike Davis link=topic=213.msg2112#msg2112 date=1256778037]
Richard111:
OGGY or ORGY? :o
[/quote]

Sorry, my bad, should have used OGGIN.  ;D

Edit: http://www.languagehat.com/archives/003307.php
Environmentalism is based on lies and the lies reflect an agenda that regards humanity as the enemy of the Earth. - Alan Caruba
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#34
Richard111:
I looked it up an realize that seeing as how I do not speek English English my confusion is acceptable to me at least. Here is what I found:
Oggin Naval  Modern sailors' slang for the sea; it is said to be derived from Hogwash, though some assert that it comes from a mispronouncement of Ocean. Synonyms are The Ditch, The Pond, The Drink, all three of which words are used by officers more often than Oggin.
That fits with the thread and comes from here:
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/glossary/o.htm
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#35
Yep. It's a class thing. Lower classes didn't want the toffs to know what they were talking about, hence the rise of Cockney rhyming slang.

Been some interesting comments about ocean heat content changing up and down faster than can be acounted for by TSI and climate effects. I am looking forward to reading the full story.
Environmentalism is based on lies and the lies reflect an agenda that regards humanity as the enemy of the Earth. - Alan Caruba
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#36
Richard111:
To me it seems a natural thing. The ocean can be seen as a capacitor it receives energy from the sun and releases it during times of little or no incoming energy. cooler atmosphere drains the energy from the oceans with the winds providing a larger surface interface to drain the energy faster. When the solar output is below a certain level then the unbalance is toward loosing energy rather than gaining.
There are a bunch of theories regarding the earth solar interaction but not enough accurate data to prove or falsify many of the theories. It will take time and research to achieve answers and maybe the best we can hope for is a little better understanding of the process.
I do not think that any one theory has the answer but a combination of many theories will. The current theories are probably right and wrong but time and research will tell us the extent of correctness.
If the current theories can not fit reality then the theories need to be adjusted to account for reality rather than what is happening in the climate research world where they have adjusted the results to fit the theories or claim the measurements were wrong because they do not fit a theory.
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